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Post by Najmie Zulfikar on Nov 28, 2013 18:29:06 GMT
i am so sorry sir i am late to post my comment because i still confuse to log in this Proboards hehehehe
After i read this journal i got the point in this journal. there are three points.
First,Analysis the the relationship between indirectness and politeness in request.
Second, In order to find out to what extent politeness and indirectness are viewed as over laping or mutually excluding categories by Romanians compared to other nationalities,such as the British and the Hebrew. Third,another inherent goal of the paper is to provide an example of the sociolinguistics instrument than can be employed in the investigation of the differences and similarities likely to emerge in intercultural encounters.
in my opinion i can conclude that this Romanian is pretty close to Hebrew in term of the linguistic strategies employed. However the current research also point out to the fact in Romanian. We are more likely to encounter conventional indirect polite strategies compare to Hebrew and English. i think enough sir and thanks a lot
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mustaanah
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be a superWOMAN
Posts: 3
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Post by mustaanah on Nov 28, 2013 18:59:54 GMT
Dear Mr. Akmal, First f all, I would like to thank you for giving me a great chance to join in this beneficial forum, Sir. It's like bringing us in a lost island (this forum), tied together and a closed room in order to then we think harder for the solutions (comment) on the problems and all of us settle up together to run away. But I think we dont wanna to settle. this is a nice website having be made to encounter the thoughts in discussing all the problems to solve. Well, I have read a worthy journal entitled "POLITENESS IN REQUESTS:SOME RESEARCH FINDINGS RELEVANT FOR INTERCULTURAL ENCOUNTERS" by Aura CODREANU and Alina DEBU, Romania. The purpose of the research was to investigate the connection between politeness and indirectness in the Romanian language compared to other nationalities, such as the British and the Hebrew. the research conducted this study to the seven respondents of Romanians. the findings seem to tell us that there is the same choice between Romanian and Hebrew contradict with English in ranking the strategy types of politeness and indirectness. Thus, the conclusion could be that Romanians are more likely to use conventional indirect strategies than other nationalities. Romanian seems to overlap with Hebrew in terms of the linguistic strategies. This research also points out to the fact that in Romanian are more likely to encounter conventional indirect polite strategies compared to Hebrew and English. The strength of this study is to be considered overcoming to complete further research in the field of linguistics and pragmatics more specifically of intercultural encounters at the level of linguistic discourse. This study tries to prove the theories while comparing. It is elaborated in ranking strategy from some respondents. The weakness of the survey is the first, this study should be carried out on a larger group of respondents. it would be interesting to look if there are any other respondents favoring hints and hedged performatives as both the most polite and conventionally indirect strategies to be used in a certain context. because however, we cannot claim them unreliable because in our view there may be differences between what one person uses on a daily basis and what the same person perceives as acceptable in terms of polite indirect strategies. the second, this study should be focused on the differences/ similarities between individual choice in applying the polite indirect strategies type and societal and linguistic norms in the certain context while proving about theories. when two languages from different countries are encountered simultaneously will have different perception. one perceives to be more polite in his own way, but it doesn't seem that another one will be able in the same way. each has a choice to use the level of strategies in the real context. SO, overlapping in the intercultural and linguistic encounter is not to be exaggerated. it must be true if we place this into any consideration. comparing and overcoming. thus differences need to be better understood and applied tightly. that's the point. Thank You, Sir (MUSTA'ANAH 7C 10420272)
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Post by nuursyaikha on Nov 29, 2013 1:02:20 GMT
uuuhhh.... finally... can join.
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Post by NithaPramesta on Nov 29, 2013 1:10:45 GMT
The conclusion to be drawn based on the findings and after the data analysis is that while most respondents (i.e. seven) choose the same strategy (i.e. query preparatory) as an individual manner of self expression, as well as a strategy perceived equally polite and indirect, the other two respondents seem to contradict themselves. However, we cannot claim them unreliable because in our view there may be differences between what one person uses on a daily basis and what the same person perceives as adquat, acceptable in terms of polite indirect strategies. we could draw is that Romanian is pretty close to Hebrew in terms of the linguistic strategies employed. However, the current research also points out to the fact that in Romanian we are more likely to encounter conventional indirect polite strategies compared to Hebrew and English. In this respect, we cannot claim though too much originality of the findings. Romanians list the same category either on the seventh or the eighth position on the directness scale, for Hebrew the utterances appear on the sixth position, whereas in English they appear on the fifth position.it's all quietly different with polite request in Indonesia. in our country, if we want to request something, we will do it with the best warmth we have. we will look at the person that we will ask and the smile never lost. There same way in Indonesian, Romanian and Hebrew, but there also many the differences. so, I think all of country in the world have difference ways to say the polite request.
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Post by umikhariroh on Nov 29, 2013 1:29:08 GMT
First of all, I would like to say thank you very much to Mr. Akmal that has introduced me about this forum. It makes me get more experience and knowledge about forum discussion. I have read the journal with the title “Politeness in Requests: Some Research Findings Relevant for Intercultural Encounters”. This journal was researched by Aura CODREANU and Alina DEBU. It tells us about relationship between indirectness and politeness in requests by Romanians compared to other nationalities, such as the British and the Hebrew. One of the major of matters is the emergence in intercultural encounters about the socio-linguistic discourse of politeness. Researchers’ undertaking needs some background to the issue of politeness in requests through indirect strategies, before presenting the research project supporting the aim(s) of this article. For Starting from this theoretical background, the researchers tried to find out whether Romanians associate politeness with conventional indirectness, as Blum Kulka asserts, or they consider non-conventional indirectness as more polite. Moreover, researchers tried to identify if there are any similarities between the answers of the Romanian respondents and those of Blum Kulka’s respondents. In order to attain these objectives, the researchers used the method called “the discourse completion test” (DCT). This method basically consists in creating a certain situation, where respondents are asked to engage in a conversation about a certain ordinary problem. In terms of directness and indirectness, and politeness, the answers provided by the respondents were somewhat similar to the previous choices. It can be applied to participants coming from different cultural background directly. So, the conclusion is that Romanian is pretty close to Hebrew in terms of the linguistic strategies employed. As we know that every place (village, city, even country) has different habit and culture, such our country Indonesia that has many cultures, so they (Indonesian people) have different way to show their politeness even the others. However, this journal also has weakness. The weakness is the limitation of respondents in which the researchers are only used seven of Romanians’ students. It was not effective. It should be carried out on a larger group of respondents. Then, what people claim in hypothetical situation usually is not necessarily what they actually say in real situations. Even though this journal has the weakness, it has the important side in showing the politeness through indirect conversation in intercultural situation. It gives us information about the politeness and indirectness in request in the different country, so we know that every place has different way to show their politeness. Umi Khariroh 7C/10420158
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Post by nurkhusnalaila on Nov 29, 2013 1:39:02 GMT
I’m sorry sir, I'm late to send this comment, and after i have read the journal entitled “POLITENESS IN REQUESTS : SOME RESEARCH FINDINGS RELEVANT FOR INTERCULTURAL ENCOUNTERS”, that has the aim is to analyze the relationship between indirectness and politeness in requests. I think the journal is difficult to understand. Many unfamiliar words that I just find them. Like the eight types of request strategies used in the research. It can make me confused about it, but, it can contribute new vocab also. Based on the journal, we can find significance differences and similarities likely to emerge in intercultural encounters. This journal may contribute niche neglected so far and provide a theoretical and practical framework for further investigations into the field of polite and overlapping or mutually excluding categories by Romanians compared to other nationalities, such as the British and the Hebrew. In my opinion, the strength of the journal are the journal used appropriate method by called discourse completion test because the method can be applied directly to participants coming from different cultural background. The journal has weakness also, it is not effective if the researcher used seven respondents of Rumanians’ students because they were not the native Romanians. The journal should be taken many respondents to get effective result. It is not able to bring out the extended negotiation which commonly occurs in authentic discourse due to the absence of interactions between interlocutors. Thus, a conclusion that we could draw is that Romanian is pretty close to Hebrew in terms of the linguistic strategies employed. However, the current research also points out to the fact that in Romanian we are more likely to encounter conventional indirect polite strategies compared to Hebrew and English. In this respect, we cannot claim though too much originality of the findings due to the restricted sample of respondents. That's enough for me, thanks a lot sir
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Post by hazmy12 on Nov 29, 2013 1:47:30 GMT
Commenting on the journal entitles ‘Politeness in Requests’ I read, let me say that it was all about relationship between indirectness and politeness in requests. It was between Romanians and other nationalities, such as the British and the Hebrew. There are some aims to be achieved by the researcher. The first is to analyze the relationship between indirectness and politeness in request, the second is to find out to what extent politeness and indirectness are viewed as overlapping or mutually excluding categories. The third goal is to provide an example of the sociolinguistics instruments that can be employed in the investigation of the differences and similarities likely to emerge in intercultural encounters. From this article, the reader knew which one of the countries is more polite and the the reader also get the information especially about the politeness and indirectness of those countries. So that, people can take a position if they are in that country. This journal is really good for us as students of English Department because we became know about the comparison of three languages; Rumanian, Hebrew, and British, of which one the most polite of three languages implementing in asking requests. The weakness of the journal is there is no example of the real conversation, it just gives some sentences, its better to give it. Thanks for read this comment BY: HAZMY INDRA GUNAWAN/10420145/7D
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Post by lailatulfitriyah on Nov 29, 2013 2:00:57 GMT
thank you sir, its my glad to join this forum. like this
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Post by Liya Rofyani on Nov 29, 2013 2:19:03 GMT
Thank you Sir, it's very interesting for me
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Post by Admin on Nov 29, 2013 2:30:59 GMT
I have read an article entitled "POLITENESS IN REQUESTS: SOME RESEARCH FINDINGS RELEVANT FOR INTERCULTURAL ENCOUNTERS" by Aura Codreanu, PhD, MA, MSc, Regional Department of Defense Resources Management Studies, Brasov, Romania and Alina Debu, MA, Teacher of Romanian language, Fagaras, Romania. First of all, I want to thanks to Mr. akmal who already gave opportunity to read this journal. In my opinion, the journal is difficult to understand. But, this journal is very important, especially for us “English Department Student”. This journal told us about focusing on the means of indirectness and politeness in request available at the linguistic level in Romanian and other nationalities. Every nationalities have different views and have different style of method available to them. Based on the introduction, it tells that the purpose of the paper is to find out to what extent politeness and indirectness are viewed by Romanians compared to other. So, it is the most important thing that must we know. According to me, this journal tell us about the relationship between indirectness and politeness in request in order to find out what the extend is politeness as view of over lapping or manually excluding categories by Romanian compared with England and Hebrew. The journal gives us many information about the politeness and indirectness in request in the different country, it gives us more information and knowledge about how to request include indirectness and politeness. The knowledge about how to request is very important when we are in the hotel and in the other places as the guest or employee. The weakness of this research is the respondents of Romanians only seven students and they were not the native of Romanians. So, I think it is not an effective way, because the seven respondent have to choose the eight categories and type them in directness or politeness. The research should be taken away many respondents, because the result can’t find based on the seven respondent. Thank you for correcting my comment, sir :) BY: DANANG MUTTAQIN/ 10420165/ 7B Ok Mr.Danang,your hard work deserves good score of A.Keep giving remarks on your friends' responds.
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Post by Rifai Yusuf on Nov 29, 2013 2:35:16 GMT
Amazing...... Thank you sir....
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Post by Etty Ayu Kartika on Nov 29, 2013 2:37:07 GMT
Thanks sir, I have already read about the journal that you give to us. It's about POLITENESS IN REQUESTS relevant findings for some research intercultural encounters. The contents of the journal is about analyzing the relationship between indirectness and politeness in requests in Romania. Whether Romanians associate with conventional indirectness politeness, as Blum Kulka asserts, or they Consider non- conventional indirectness as more polite. Another purposes of the paper is to provide an example of the socio-linguistics instruments that can be employed in the investigation of the differences and similarities Likely to emerge in intercultural encounters. The experiment used the method called "the discourse completion test". This method basically consists in creating a certain situation, where respondents are asked to engage in a conversation about a certain ordinary problem. The researcher gives the the first part of participants of the conversation along with a description of the situation and Asks the informant to complete this situation by supplying a continuation. The results Out of the eight utterances four were pointed out as the most preferred items, namely those belonging to the query preparatory category (chosen by seven respondents), to the statement category (by two respondents) and to the hedged per formative and hints by a respondent.
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Post by Admin on Nov 29, 2013 2:43:24 GMT
based on journal journal.dresmara.ro/issues/volume2_issue2/14_codreanu_debu.pdf, I think that level of politeness is seen to overlap with others. But not with propriety Romania. Research carried out by the method (DCT) can not measure the level of courtesy that exists somewhere. Because, the level of civility that occurs in a place is always different in every place. It is clear that the desired modesty in directly between indirect way to say it had to be separated. It is clear that the Hebrew language is the best of the others. And Hedged performatives as polite strategies are ranked second in Hebrew,and first or second in Romanian. Unlike these two languages, English ranks them on the fourth position. Once again, Romanian and Hebrew rank these utterances as to their directness/ indirectness on the sixth position, whereas English on the fifth. This second type of utterances seem to point out to similarities between Hebrew and Romanian, an aspect which is to be researched in detail in the future. you comments are not related to indonesian politeness system.ur score is B-
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Post by Admin on Nov 29, 2013 2:46:28 GMT
based on the journal, it is very important to show politeness through indirect conversation in intercultural situation. the politeness is inflected by the using of language and the choosing of the words will be used. this is very rarely to the students of English education to aware that language has affected in many aspects of social living. this journal can give me the sudden realization that language is the most important thing to have a good achievement in different cultural environment. your comments are too short and no weakness and strength points.It is also lack of Indonesian reflection. the score is C.
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Post by Dewi Anggraini on Nov 29, 2013 2:47:25 GMT
According to me, this journal tell us about the relationship between indirectness and politeness in request in order to find out what the extend is politeness as view of over lapping or manually excluding categories by Romanian compared with England and Hebrew. The journal gives us many information about the politeness and indirectness in request in the different country, it gives us more information and knowledge about how to request include indirectness and politeness. The knowledge about how to request is very important when we are in the hotel and in the other places as the guest or employee.
The Weakness of the journal: The researcher only used seven students of Romanians’ students. In my opinion, it is not effective because they were not the native Romanians. Then, the hypothetical nature of the situations simplifies the complexity of interaction in real conversation.
The Strength of the journal: The journal used appropriate method by called discourse completion test (DCT) because the method can be applied directly to participants coming from different cultural background. So, the conclusion is that Romanian is pretty close to Hebraw in terms of the linguistic strategies employed. Remember, as we know that every place has different culture. Different with our country (Indonesia)
Politeness Request in Indonesia have already be used since we were born. It is seen from age, respect, and position. But, we cannot claim if Indonesia is more polite than another because every places has their own culture.
Thank you for show me the journal sir, I hope it will be useful for us in the future.
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Post by Admin on Nov 29, 2013 2:48:57 GMT
Based on the paper, i think the content is analyze the relationship between indirectness and politeness in requests in Romania. Each country has different ways to attract people.. So in bahasa indonesia we know it as "lain ladang lain belalang, lain lubuk lain ikannya".. your comments are too short and lack of pertinent relationship to indonesian politness.Maximum score of this task is D.
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eka
New Member
Posts: 1
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Post by eka on Nov 29, 2013 2:49:39 GMT
Thanks sir for this info. I think the journal is about the research that analaze about POLITENESS IN REQUESTS. I think this journal is very important to read because I get some information from the journal.
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Post by Admin on Nov 29, 2013 2:54:13 GMT
According to me, this journal tell us about the relationship between indirectness and politeness in request in order to find out what the extend is politeness as view of over lapping or manually excluding categories by Romanian compared with England and Hebrew. The journal gives us many information about the politeness and indirectness in request in the different country, it gives us more information and knowledge about how to request include indirectness and politeness. The knowledge about how to request is very important when we are in the hotel and in the other places as the guest or employee. The Weakness of the journal: The researcher only used seven students of Romanians’ students. In my opinion, it is not effective because they were not the native Romanians. Then, the hypothetical nature of the situations simplifies the complexity of interaction in real conversation. The Strength of the journal: The journal used appropriate method by called discourse completion test (DCT) because the method can be applied directly to participants coming from different cultural background. So, the conclusion is that Romanian is pretty close to Hebraw in terms of the linguistic strategies employed. Remember, as we know that every place has different culture. Different with our country (Indonesia) Politeness Request in Indonesia have already be used since we were born. It is seen from age, respect, and position. But, we cannot claim if Indonesia is more polite than another because every places has their own culture. Thank you for show me the journal sir, I hope it will be useful for us in the future. your comments are almost the same with others,the score is A-
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Post by wiwinwinarsih on Nov 29, 2013 3:02:55 GMT
After I have read the article about indirectness and politeness in requests in Romanian, I have thought that it is a useful research. Why can I say that? Because it can be used as a material in education especially for linguistics and pragmatics. This finding can be used as an analytical study of language. As we know that politeness in each country is different. We can learn culture language in Cross Cultural Understanding subject. It is good to know how people do requesting to others in their country, so that we can know how to do conversation with others from abroad, especially in requesting. But, in my opinion it is not easy to apply the politeness like that in our country because people are not accustomed with that. From the article we can know that Rumanian has the most politeness and directness language to express requesting. The researcher has compared the study with Hebrew and British. In short, from the article it cannot be ascertained that Rumanian has the most politeness language especially in requesting because 10 respondents is not enough to conclude the research. It has to be cleared and give validity with use more sample as the respondents and a research also can be done many times to prove the validity and accuracy in a study. thank you.. Wiwin Winarsih/10420046/7B
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Post by achyar on Nov 29, 2013 3:07:28 GMT
thank sir, the journal of POLITENESS IN REQUESTS:SOME RESEARCH FINDINGS RELEVANT FOR INTERCULTURAL ENCOUNTERS about analyzing the relationship between indirectness and politeness in requests. The research project supporting the findings of the paper was undertaken in order to fi nd out to what extent politeness and indirectness are viewed as overlapping or mutually excluding categories by Romanians compared to other nationalities, such as the British and the Hebrew. I still confuse with the journal sir, but the journal have some information to us
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Post by LutfiaWulanSari on Nov 29, 2013 3:12:09 GMT
First of all, I would like to say thank you to Mr. Akmal for the opportunity to join in this group because I can improve my knowledge and my skill in IT and can join in the e-learning program. I’ve read the journal about POLITENESS IN REQUESTS: SOME RESEARCH FINDINGS RELEVANT FOR INTERCULTURAL ENCOUNTERS by Aura Conderanu and Alina Debu. When I read this journal, I have some problems in understanding this journal because of the language. But, I try to understand it because the English students must know the highest level of the language and try to understand and always read some journals. This journal talk about the relationship between indirectness and politeness in requests. The researcher compare politeness and indirectness in Rumanians, the British and The Hebrew. I think for researcher to get a data with many people in Rumanians, British and Hebrew and it is just not seven people, so we can get real and many information for the journal about the politeness in request. But, I think that each country has a differences culture especially for the politeness. In the other hand, each country also has different politeness. From this journal, the reader know the culture from the other country. Especially, for English students in Indonesia. We can know that the politeness request and we can compare the politeness request in our country and in the other country. That’s all for me sir. I hope this journal can be useful for us and will wait your correcting sir
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Post by umifadhilah on Nov 29, 2013 3:22:49 GMT
Dear Mr. Akmal. First of all, I would like to say sorry sir, i am late for giving the comment.because i really confuse for login. Well . I have read this article sir, entitle "POLITENESS IN REQUESTS:SOME RESEARCH FINDINGS RELEVANT FOR INTERCULTURAL ENCOUNTERS" Actually i really confuse about this article because there some many unfamiliar word. This article talk about the differences between indirectness and politeness in requests. It is about English in British and the hedbrew. The goal is finding the same choice between Romanian and Hedrew in English strategy types of politeness and indirectness. Thus, i believe that only through similar research undertaken in the fields contributing to the emerging field of interculturality one can actually trespass the theoretical assumptions and move on to the identify cation of the right tools and means through which intercultural discourse to be approached at a pragmatic level and thus better understood and taught in educational establishments. This article has the weakness would be interesting to look if there are any other respondents favoring hints and hedged performatives as both the most polite and conventionally indirect strategies to be used in a certain context. because however, we cannot claim them unreliable because in our view there may be differences between what one person uses on a daily basis and what the same person perceives as acceptable in terms of polite indirect strategies. The conclusion to be drawn based on the findings and after the data analysis is that while most respondents choose the same strategy (i.e. query preparatory) as an individual manner of self expression, as well as a strategy in indirectness and politeness. Thanks a lot sir... By : Umi Fadhilah 7B. 10420159
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Post by dian sartika on Nov 29, 2013 3:53:47 GMT
good morning, everyone! i just want to write my opinion here. politeness is a key to intercultural competence. and politness is a state that one expects to exist in every conversation; participants not that someone is being polite-this is the norm-but rather that the speaker is violating the conversational contract. politeness is not inherent in language. why? it because polite language may be used for impoliteness, polite language may be understood as a sign of coldness, arrogance, etc, and politeness strategies may be misinterpreted. that is just my opinion, so sorry if i have wrong words God bless you all!
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ajie
New Member
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Welcome
Nov 29, 2013 4:04:15 GMT
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Post by ajie on Nov 29, 2013 4:04:15 GMT
I'm Ajie Setyadi from 7B 10420169
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Post by farikhah on Nov 29, 2013 4:05:41 GMT
Thank you Sir... It's a new experience for me...
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Post by farikhah on Nov 29, 2013 4:08:26 GMT
Thank you sir...It's a new experience for me...
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Post by Eny Purwati on Nov 29, 2013 4:16:51 GMT
Hello mr. Akmal. I'm very glad to join your forum.This is my first time doing this assignment. I think your assignment is confusing, but beside that I have more knowledge and experience about forum like this. It's very interesting, amazing and important for us as English Department college . I have read your journal about politeness in request some research findings relevant for intercultural encounters.I think the article's aim is to analyze the relationship between indirectness and politeness in requests. And the goal of the article is to provide an example of the sociology linguistics instruments that can be employed in the investigation of the differences and similarities likely to emerge in intercultural encounters.This article is important for us because it is explain the importance of taking such a specific approach when it comes to understanding intercultural relationships from a socio linguistic perspective. The article contains to find out whether Romanians associate politeness with conventional indirectness, as Blum Kulka asserts, or they consider non-conventional indirectness as more polite, and to identify if there are any similarities between the answers of the Romanian respondents and those of Blum Kulka’s respondents. Thank you sir for your assignment.
See you sir ^.^
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Post by Jihan Haqqi Rais on Nov 29, 2013 4:17:23 GMT
Oke sir, Thank you very much for giving me new knowledge about the material that we discussed yesterday. From this article, the reader knew which one of the countries is more polite and the the reader also get the information especially about the politeness and indirectness of those countries. So that, people can take a position if they are in that country.
The good things of the journal are that we can know if the level of politeness can not be the same. we think that our way to request is polite, but probably not for the others. also the researcher gives some tables as the measurements, so it seems that result can be considered as a high quality of research. in addition, the researcher also provides the situation which is simple and useful. that will make the respondents easier to answer the questions given by the researcher.
The weakness of the journal is about the limited information in research question. It makes the reader not too understand about the content of the journal. The weakness also about the sampling of the research.It is not effective if the researcher just use seven students of Romanians' students. it also not efficient for a research.
Different with our country (Indonesia)
Politeness Request in Indonesia have already be used since we were born. Our country (Indonesia) always show good polite and kind. Especially in java, java is polite culture.
As the conclusion of the research, the researchers concluded that Romanian and Hebrew were relatively polite in requests and used indirect strategy. Whereas British was concluded that they were quite polite in requests with such direct strategy. If it is compared with Indonesian, the major of Indonesian uses such politeness in requests; using indirect strategy (conventional and non-conventional). Because Indonesian has been taught to be a polite person in a manner.
Thank you sir, Be a good lecturer and have nice day
By : Jihan Haqqi Rais ( 10420234 ) 7B
Ok Mr.Jihan.You have made such a great progress. You deserve A score for this task.All the best.
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Post by istalia on Nov 29, 2013 4:28:31 GMT
thank you sir.
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Post by Dhina Martianing T on Nov 29, 2013 4:46:10 GMT
Thanks before, you are the best lecture, you are not only give me a leaning process but you also give me some techniques to online. The article tells about the relationship between politeness and indirectness in request. The research project was undertaken to find out to what extent politeness and indirectness are viewed as overlaping categories by Romanians compared to other nationalities such as the British and the Hebrew.That in a country has a rule or a norm of civility individual in speaking or comportment to a person. So we do not wrong of defining that language we have to study kinds of sorts of rules of civility in the country.This journal can help us to establish a relationship with the outside of our culture in interpreting assumptions or notions of propriety outside our culture. I think it's very important to read it especially for us, as the students of english department. It's important to know the politeness of how the people making requests in other countries especially in English, Hebrew, and Romanian. my name is Dhina Martianing T./ 10420144/ 7B
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